Each Sunday, the Kultgen‑Popp family convenes on Zoom for heated debates. Siblings Chad Kultgen and Haley Popp, joining from California and Texas, argue that President Trump is harmful, while their parents, Mary Lou and Bob Kultgen, based in Oklahoma, dismiss those claims.
They exchange opposing headlines, citing the Iran war, the Epstein files, and other trending topics. Each discussion concludes with a tired “I love you.” Chad, 50, usually spearheads the conversation, posting the video on YouTube as the podcast “The Necessary Conversation,” which regularly attracts over 100,000 viewers per episode.
Political tensions have strained and broken many relationships for years. A 2026 study by psychologists at the University of California, Irvine found that over one‑third of Americans report ending relationships with family, partners, friends, or colleagues due to political differences. A December 2025 Pew Research Center poll showed that 56 % of Americans have ceased discussing political or election news with someone because of what was said, up from 45 % in 2024.
The internet is filled with steel‑cage‑match‑style debates, such as Jubilee shows or “Change My Mind,” where strangers roast each other for entertainment. “The Necessary Conversation” distinguishes itself as a public version of the private family arguments that occur nationwide, and these familial disputes often cut deeper than a stranger’s sparring match.
For the Kultgen‑Popp family, conflict feels like progress. When Chad posted anti‑Trump memes on Facebook during Trump’s first term, his mother reacted angrily, and the family entered a near‑yearlong silence. Though they were too angry to discuss politics, their partisan differences kept the topic unavoidable.
The estrangement worsened matters. “I used to speak to my mother daily,” Haley, 45, explained. “Going from that to complete silence was devastating.” The family collectively acknowledges this pain, as Mary Lou, 71, remarked, “It almost ripped my heart out.”
In 2021, Mary Lou’s phone rang; it was Chad. “Mom, I have an idea,” he said. “What if we meet weekly on Zoom as a family?” Mary Lou agreed, “OK, but let’s keep it about politics.” She hesitated, “Oh, I don’t know.”
Chad has previously hosted other podcasts and co‑authored a book on succeeding in reality television. Haley has appeared on Food Network contests and runs a bakery with an unapologetically progressive online presence. Nevertheless, the podcast represented a novel and risky venture for their parents.
At the start of each episode, Chad presents recent headlines intended to shock his parents into reconsidering their support for Trump. Mary Lou then shares her own headlines, hoping to persuade Chad and Haley to view Trump differently.
Her husband, Bob, holds strongly right‑leaning, provocative views—some of which his children label racist—and has missed recordings due to health issues. Until this spring, Mary Lou missed only one Sunday session, after her cherished Chihuahua, Kitty Kat Sugar Bear, was euthanized.
“The hardest part is articulating my thoughts quickly enough,” Mary Lou said. “Liberals are always listening, ready to criticize any misstep. I therefore take great care to think before I speak.”
Intellectually, Chad and Haley know that arguing over facts is ineffective, yet they continue anyway, almost constantly. “I can’t help it,” Chad said. “Seeing the world’s turmoil is maddening, even though I just want a point of contact.”
Watching a family argue
Recurring patterns appear throughout “The Necessary Conversation.” The more the siblings press, the more extreme the parents become, and conversely.
In one episode, they examined the possibility of a military draft. Bob voiced support for conscripting 18‑year‑olds. Mary Lou quietly expressed disagreement—“I don’t think so,” she said, “I don’t like that.” Her comment was quickly drowned out, and she later defended the draft alongside her husband.
Viewers glimpse a deeper dialogue in two episodes when therapist Karen Cunningham visits the family at Chad’s invitation. Though Cunningham has built an online following criticizing Trump, the parents remain unfazed. “I love her,” Mary Lou said. “I want her back.”
In Cunningham’s presence, Bob, 73, behaved markedly differently—facing the camera more and looking away from the window less. He disclosed that he was abandoned as an infant and raised by an indifferent adoptive mother, and that he has spent his life trying to prove his biological mother shouldn’t have given him up.
Occasional tender moments illustrate the show’s subtle impact on the family. So far, no one admits to changing their political stance, yet the program has improved their off‑mic rapport. “If we’re going to fight, we’ll do it there,” Mary Lou said. She and Haley now talk almost daily about Haley’s children, Bob’s health, Mary Lou’s horse, and everyday life.
Through the podcast, they have established a regular time and place to contain their conflicts, similar to how other families use therapy, and have also created a shared project that unites them.
The podcast also exacts a heavy toll. After each episode, Haley needs two to three hours to recover. “I retreat to my bedroom, shut the door, and read a book,” she said. “I try to return to reality; it’s not easy for me.”
Mary Lou has, on several occasions, ended an episode saying she can’t continue. “Some Sundays feel like an athletic event,” she said. “My heart races, I’m drenched in sweat. I click off, then I go to my horse, which helps me de‑stress.”
Is the conversation necessary?
The premise of “The Necessary Conversation” is that such dialogues should take place in more living rooms nationwide. But is that really the case?
Several conflict experts praised the family for persisting in the debate. “They’re having the conversation,” said Ryan Dunlap, a former hostage negotiator and crisis‑intervention officer who runs Conflictish, a conflict‑strategy firm. “It sounds simple, but we’ve become so polarized that we can’t even engage in difficult conversations. They are subjecting themselves to repeated discomfort.”
But the family’s biggest mistake, experts argue, is starting with the goal of changing each other’s minds. “It just doesn’t work,” said Orna Guralnik, the clinical psychologist featured in “Couples Therapy,” a Showtime documentary series. “It’s a fantasy.”
Experts agree that humans have a deep need for autonomy; pressuring someone to agree often causes resistance and can push them even farther away.
Persuasion research reveals a hard‑to‑accept paradox: the only way to change people entrenched in conflict is to repeatedly show that you are not trying to change them.
It helps to adopt a different goal. In hostage negotiations, Dunlap said he would aim to understand the underlying need—perhaps freedom or respect. If you can have that conversation, a path forward may emerge.
This occurred when therapist Karen Cunningham joined the show. She echoed the family’s own words, showing she was listening: “Where did that come from, that you ‘had to be the best’?” she asked Bob. When he described how hard his childhood had been, she acknowledged his suffering with three simple words: “I’m so sorry.”
Bob “was more open and transparent in that conversation than in any of the other clips I’ve seen,” Dunlap said.
When people feel heard and understood, they relax their grip on their arguments and may even listen. “You’re unlikely to reach a joint resolution,” Guralnik said. “What you might achieve is each side holding its argument less dogmatically.”
In a series of studies, Julia Minson, a behavioral scientist at Harvard, and her colleagues found that people who begin and end their arguments by stating they want to learn from the other person are perceived as more intelligent, moral, trustworthy, and objective. The takeaway: changing minds isn’t impossible, but it takes far longer than expected, and the prerequisite is genuine understanding, which requires real listening.
The paradox of persuasion
The four‑year‑old show’s modest audience has nearly quadrupled since 2025, around the time Chad began posting provocative clips on TikTok. Mary Lou soon became recognizable at Costco. Watching the siblings chastise their parents weekly gives frustrated progressives a vicarious outlet, but it will not bring the country closer together, experts say. Excessive persuasion can even make persuasion impossible.
